Key Takeaways:

• One of the hardest things for moms during the pandemic is that “it takes a village” was still true, but it was a lot harder to actually have a village.
• If you are experiencing signs of PPD, don’t wait until your doctor asks. Even if you feel they can’t help you, they can refer you to someone who can.
• Women feel much more out of control of their lives in the midst of this pandemic than they did 2 years ago.
• Learning to find out what you really want to say yes to will let you say no to the things that are only going to drain your time and energy.

INSIDE THE EPISODE:

Dr. Whitney:

Welcome back to the Modern Mommy Doc Podcast. Today we have Gina Bulla, Executive Director of Insights at The Atlantic with us to talk about having a baby in a pandemic, about being a working mom in a man's world, and having to navigate all of that. Gina, welcome to the podcast! So, tell us what you do. What does it mean to be the Director of Insights at the Atlantic? And tell us about your story of becoming a mom during the COVID pandemic.

Gina:

So The Atlantic is a pretty well known journalism institution. I work on the advertising and marketing side of the business. So my job is really to help our advertising clients understand who our audience is and how to best connect with them. And as part of that job, it's important for us to stay on top of culture. And what's really driving the relationship between brands and consumers. So it's a lot of research into our own audience and what they're thinking and feeling, but also the culture at large.

And I had my first daughter in October, 2020. My whole experience of parenting has been during this pandemic. I was nine weeks pregnant when the world sort of shut down. I remember being in my boss's office and she was asking how I was feeling and if I was worried about the pandemic. I told them I wanted to work from home because I but that was kind of before all the decisions were being made. And of course, the next day, everybody was working from home. So, you know, there's silver linings and challenges, but it's been an interesting time to say the least.

Dr.Whitney:

Yeah, absolutely. And talk more about what it was like in terms of the isolation from other parents. Because what we talk a ton at Modern Mommy Doc, but also as pediatricians, is making sure you get your resources around you when you're a new parent. Not just your material resources, but also your friends, your family, your social capital. What was it like being more isolated at that time?

Gina:

Yeah, it's still funny because everything that you read about having a newborn says to rely on your village and there really was no physical village at that point in the pandemic. It was still before vaccines rolled out. And I'm very lucky to have a lot of family and friends and people who reached out to me and did what they could virtually or through text or whatever. But, you know, not being able to really see a whole lot of people during that time was lonely and isolating. Not so much that I felt like I needed help with the baby, but it was more just being able to share that newborn experience with people. And sort of missing those rites of passage where people come and visit your baby and you can have a conversation. And maybe I'm idealizing that because I didn't get that experience, but just wanting to talk to people about the birthing experience, things that you wouldn't say in text. And I'm not really a person that talks on the phone all that much. So maybe during that period of time I should have been, but it felt lonely. And we live in a New York city apartment. So definitely felt like we were kinda cooped up inside and I miss seeing people and connecting with people in that way.

Dr. Whitney:

Did your pediatrician's office offer any type of Zoom Mommy and Me groups or Daddy and Me groups or Parent and Me groups for families?

Gina:

No, not really. Not that I knew of. Every time I took the baby to the doctor, there was a survey sort of asking me how you were doing, which was always fine. And that was it. I will say back at work, we have a very active parents group and that has been great for that kinda connection.

Whitney:

So I think two things about that are interesting. One, I'm proud of my pediatrics practice in Oregon, that they did jump on trying to make their sessions in Zoom. We already had what we call The Baby Hour, which a lot of hospitals have that same thing. You go meet other families. And I know for a lot of my patients that that ability to connect with other moms or dads, like in real life, in a room with your other babies there, had been so powerful. And so they jumped on it quickly with Zoom. For me personally, I actually like to commiserate with you because I never, ever had that also, Gina. Because as a physician, I went one time to that type of group and my colicky, first baby who didn't sleep for more than 45 minutes at a time was such a wreck that I started sobbing in the middle of the group.

And the lactation people were not sure what to do with me, because they knew me from the hospital. They knew that I was a professional and I even saw patients of mine that were in the group. So I was like, this is not for me. I'm not supposed to be here. I can step away from this. And so I think, because of that experience, it kinda opened my eyes for other people about diversifying maybe where you find your support. Maybe it should be an outside hiking group or maybe it should be an ERG or maybe it should be a social media group in the very beginning, if that's your thing. Or just with your other friends that are there. I think that's one interesting point. 

And then the other thing that you said about idealizing what it would be like to have friends and to have other people and to have these rites of passage. I do think there's a lot of that that's happened in the pandemic in general, just with raising babies and kids. It's like wishing for this perfect nostalgic version of something that actually wouldn't be that way. But then at the same time, there's no way to not wish for it. Because that's what everybody wants.

Gina:

Yeah. I think I definitely had an unrealistic expectation of what that time would be. I was like, oh I think I would've been like going out to lunch with friends. In reality, I probably wouldn't have been doing that.

Whitney:

Then the other thing you mentioned is the little survey. The Edinburgh survey is what I'm assuming you filled out. It's an evidence based, scientifically proven, measure screener of if moms have postpartum depression. But I have found in practice that there are a lot of moms who are like, "I don't know. You're not able to help me with this anyway. So whatever I'm fine." You know what I mean?

Gina:

Well, what I would say was really surprising to me is that my pediatrician, my daughter's doctor had that survey. But then when I went for my six week appointment with my OBGYN, she didn't ask me anything about how I was doing emotionally. And I loved her. She was great. And I was surprised. Because I was thinking to myself that if there was someone I was gonna open up to, it would be my OBGYN that I've known for years. Probably not the pediatrician I just met a few weeks ago.

Whitney:

It's actually staggering the number of women that are not asked about postpartum depression and it varies state to state, it varies practice to practice. So I actually don't have a really good system for catching people. I think probably the most important message that I always am giving to caregivers is to think beyond the survey and watching the reaction of these moms, with their babies, to listening to what their real concerns are. You know, you might have opened up more if we were really worried about sleep or about feeding or about your baby's skin. And I was able to say, "This seems really anxiety provoking for you." Then I would be able to say a lot of moms have anxiety and depression and open that conversation.

I wanna hear also about as you returned back to work and really started looking at cultural influences. What do you need to think about as you think about advertising partners and consumers? And I know that the Atlantic does research in an annual survey called Forces of Influence. And so I wanna hear about that. What are the impacts that the pandemic has had globally on men and women and on women and men who are parents? Do we know anything about that?

Gina:

Yeah, we do the survey every year where we try to kind of understand what's behind so many different trends or the different cultural phenomenon that comes up over the course of the year. And it's not necessarily focused on parenting, but we did see a lot of differences this year between men and women. Most noticeably, we asked them about how secure they feel in different areas of their lives versus two years ago. And women were so much more likely than men to say they feel less secure in their finances, less secure in their mental health, less secure in their career. And they also were more likely than men to say they have less power control over their lives than they did two years ago. Just everything that we've heard about the pandemic being harder on women, especially moms, especially working moms. Especially my industry in advertising, we need to know that so that we speak to people. When we speak to people, they feel understood. That's so important.

Whitney:

Yeah. So the numbers are staggering. You told me women were more likely than men to say their finances, careers and mental health were less secure now versus two years ago. It was 44% for women versus 30% for men on being secure in your finances, 31% for women versus 24% for being secure in your career. And then mental health, women, 35% and then 24% who felt less secure versus two years ago. And then the control is a big piece too. That's specifically interesting to me. So women were more likely than men to say they have less control over their lives since the beginning of the pandemic, 47% versus 37%. Why do you think that is? Did you guys dig further into it or just you personally, do you have any ideas as to why that is?

Gina:

You know, I'd have to think so much of that has to do with childcare. It's literally so unpredictable, your life sort of revolves around whether or not you're gonna have childcare. And I think the other side of it is that we know so many many women who have left the workforce. Obviously they have less control over their finances and that has a huge impact on your life.

So I think it's those two things in terms of control. And then of course what we're all dealing with: the pandemic ending or not ending. This ongoing uncertainty.

Whitney:

Yeah. I think it seems a lot less black and white than it did even at the beginning of the pandemic. I'm actually finding that a lot of my patients and my community members are really having a harder time with the ambiguity. Anxiety hates ambiguity. Anxiety loves control. Anxiety loves to know what's coming next. And even if it's not the thing you wanna come next, at least you know that's what's gonna happen. I think that sense of loss of control probably comes a lot from literally you having no idea what will be the next step in this. And the directions have been so unclear and so ever changing in this moment.

Gina:

I have heard from a lot of people that the beginning of the pandemic was easier from a social perspective because nobody was going anywhere. But then when we got to the summer, it was kind of up to you to decide what personal level of risk you would take. And then it became uncomfortable because we were going out for dinner with someone, they wanted to eat inside, you wanted to eat outside. It was this awkward thing. So that's been like a whole other struggle on top of everything else.

Whitney:

My own personal journey with childcare this year has been like no other. When my kids were little, we had a nanny who was with us from the day my daughter was born. We interviewed her six months before my daughter was born and had her all the way till she was five. And she was someone who was with us really consistently. She ended up backing away from us because her own child ended up having some major medical problems, including being immunocompromised. And so in that two year time period that she was away from us, which a year and a half of it was in the pandemic, I was circling through all of these different childcare providers. And I have a neuro-divergent daughter, as everyone knows who listens to this podcast, and so securing someone, trusting someone, and then also retaining someone can be somewhat difficult in my family because they have to be able to match wits with this very strong willed, bright, amazing, but challenging kiddo when they're caring for her.

And then plus my husband and myself, our careers are extra. He's a physical therapist, I'm a pediatrician. So we bring home a lot of germs, even though we try our darndest with the PPE and all that stuff. So I found myself very much in the same boat as a lot of other women. Whereas before that happened, I was in a place of privilege and didn't even know it. I was in this place where luckily I had this person who was very, very stable, didn't matter what was happening in the world. She was able to care for my kids. And when I found myself in that place thinking that I don't know what I'm gonna do, it really brought me to my knees in terms of what I was able to do at work. And made it a lot more real as I told my partners, "Hey, I'm not gonna make it to this. Or I need to start half an hour later or I need to go home early" or whatnot. And really forcing me to parent out loud, as Mary Beth Ferrante talks about a ton in her work. And then more recently that same nanny came back into our lives. Our kids got vaccinated, so she said, "OK, great, awesome. Come on back." And then the surge happened, right? So two weeks ago I was in a place, I basically kept my kids outta school for a week in order to accommodate this other person whom I love and wanna make sure that I'm protecting. And although I might have conversations with my husband about that, I end up being the default person A) to make the decisions about it and B) to stay home with the kids, if there are issues.

And the one solution I have found in our family that tends to work is to have weekly meetings with my husband. To say, okay, we can't predict the future of exactly what's gonna happen this week, but we probably know the next two or three days. What are the needs? What do we need to do? What do we have to do? What are the obligations here? How are we gonna divide this up? What's our strategy together so that I don't feel alone? So that he feels invested. And so it feels like while we might not be able to control every single circumstance around us, we have a shared set of values around what's gonna matter most for us for the next week. So I found that helpful for other families as well. Is there anything you do to mitigate that?

Gina:

I will say that we're very lucky. We do have a wonderful nanny, but the few times that she's been out sick or had a day off, it has deferred to me. Which I don't think anyone in a heterosexual marriage will be surprised by, just by the nature of my job versus my husband's job. But I love that advice and I will definitely take it and maybe make that a weekly thing for us as well.

Whitney:

I would say this to his face, so it's not a slam on him, but I'm the more organized person in the house. I'm a more efficient person. So why would he step on my plans? But I end up feeling resentful and anxious because it all relies on me to make the plan and to see it through if it doesn't work out. The other thing that I've been really talking with families about is when you are in a season of burnout crisis, the solution is not to do more. It's always to do less. It's always to pare down. It's always to say, what stuff can I cut out that really doesn't matter at all? You know, if the house is messier right now, so be it. If my kids clothe are worn twice, three times before you wash them, so be it. It doesn't matter. What matters is your wellness and your kids' wellness. So really focusing in on that is what I would say is the most important.

Gina:

What I found coming back to work after having a baby is that you have less time, you have less energy, but you have the same job and you need to be as productive. And that's really hard to figure out. I think everybody does. And I think I've gotten back to the same level of productivity I was, but you have to get creative. My husband and I will sort of each take a section of the day on the weekend if we need to get work done. And ideally that's not every weekend, but it's some weekends. And I remember my first return from work, I laid out this ambitious plan for my team. And then for weeks I was up at night wondering what I was thinking and how I was going to get it all done. I mostly did get it done, but I don't know if I'd recommend that to other parents immediately after returning from leave.

Whitney:

My perspective is, of course there are times where you just hustle through. And I think there's times where you do it and then you have some reflection hopefully on, is this sustainable? Is this gonna work for me long term? And anybody can sprint for 600 meters. It's more about can you sprint for a marathon? Absolutely not. How can you slow down the sprint when it's possible? And I think what happens with a lot of women is they just keep on sprinting. They just never stop and think about it. Or they don't give themselves permission to say, what is the thing at work or wherever in my life that has now become a huge energy drain versus a huge energy giver. And I know in my work, there were a lot of things that I was doing pre-pandemic that now I don't do because I've decided like that's just a waste of my time. I value my talents more than that. I don't need to write five paragraph emails back to patients when they email me. I need to write a one paragraph email or a two sentence email and say, if you have more questions, I'd love to hop on a call with you because that's less draining for me. If someone wants me to be on an extra committee and I know I'm just gonna be yawning in the back row, that I need to say, absolutely not.

Gina:

One thing that's been so helpful at the Atlantic is we've reevaluated our meeting culture. There's less meetings and the meetings you are going to are structured better and are shorter. And that gives you so much time in your day. Like you wouldn't believe it. And that's made a huge change for me too, just knowing where you need to be. I think I have become a better manager coming back from leave because you do need to delegate and it gives the people that report to you the chance to really own something more. And you have to learn those delegation skills so much better.

Whitney:

I know that there are people listening to this that are thinking that it must be nice for you all to delegate to other people or to say no to things. And I could never do that in my job. And so I wanna be sensitive to different socioeconomic levels and to power differentials that happen in different fields. What I will say is this, though: I think to some degree, all of us face cultural biases and setbacks and some level of discrimination as women in a workplace, just inherently. And I was not able to really show up for myself until I decided, what are my things that I wanna say yes to? What are my top values? What is my vision for my life that at the end of the day in 40, 50, 60 years, I will be really proud of? And that allowed me to really figure out how to create systems or create boundaries to make it so that all the other stuff gets done, but it doesn't define me and that I can more easily say no to something, because I know exactly what I'm saying yes to. And we know that postpartum depression, that the brunt of that, your social supports before you have a baby, your economic status, are stressors. Those all are risk factors for postpartum depression and anxiety. And that, of course, your success afterward depends on your level of ability to access support and your resource level and all of that. But the good news is that there are a ton of organizations out there where you can get help for free. Postpartum Support International in one of them.

And there are some really amazing groups like The Center For Paid Parental Leave that are really working on trying to change the game, not just for individuals (they have a book that's for employees on how to advocate for themselves) but also for managers and for organizations. So hopefully we can win in that positive way for all of us.

Gina:

That is so important. When I first had my daughter, I thought to myself, "This is wonderful, but also so hard. And I do have all these privileges." I can imagine bringing home a baby in different circumstances. So I'm so glad you said that and thank you for bringing that up.

Whitney:

Yeah. I think the biggest gift we can give anybody though in the world is to have agency in their own life. If you look at Ken Ginsburg's work as a developmental pediatrician, he talks a ton about resilience and the 7 Cs of resilience for kids and he really says any person, no matter where they're coming from deserves to have agency in their own life.

And I guess that's what I think about when I think about control and lack of control. Our feeling right now is that every single person is worthy of feeling like they're capable of having some change that happens in their life. We can't control our circumstances but we can control how we react. All we can learn is how to take care of ourselves better.

Gina, thank you so much for being here with us today and talking about your experience. And people can follow the Atlantic on social media at @theatlantic on insta!